Opponents of ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ repeal address arguments of repeal proponents

With House Democrats now serving up a standalone bill to repeal “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” (DADT), the debate is once again at the fore — and the Pentagon’s survey of active duty military personnel remains central to the debate.

Both advocates for and against repeal of the policy have found evidence supporting their arguments in the report.

Those arguing for gays to serve openly in the U.S. military are heralding the finding in the survey that 70% of military personnel believe there will be positive, neutral, or “mixed” effects from repealing the law. Opponents are pointing to the fact that up to 60% of combat troops said that repeal would have a negative impact.

California Republican Rep. Duncan Hunter, a veteran of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, said after the report’s release that the negative response from those serving in combat units made repeal less palatable.

“If anything, the survey results make a compelling case for keeping current policy in place and avoiding any type of distraction for our nation’s military and its combat mission,” said Hunter. “When breaking down the specifics, more respondents answered unfavorably or remain uncertain about a policy change than those who favor repeal.”

Washington Democratic Sen. Patty Murray had a much different take away.

“This report gives us just one more reason among many to finally repeal don’t ask, don’t tell. We have heard the stories of the lives this policy has ruined, we have heard from top-ranking military officials that it simply doesn’t work, and now we have heard from service members that they too want it to change,” Murray said.

Despite repeal opponents’ concerns, advocates for DADT repeal say that other fighting militaries, such as Israel’s and Britain’s, have allowed gays into the military without deleterious effects — an assertion supporters of the DADT ban say is irrelevant.

“That’s an unproven assertion,” Jed Babbin, former deputy undersecretary of Defense, told The Daily Caller. “We don’t know what other militaries have had to deal with in military discipline and order. The military leaders I speak to often tell me that DADT discharges don’t come from the discovery that someone is homosexual. They mostly result from other disciplinary problems….The Marine Commandant, General Amos, said that the Marines expected problems with order and discipline if DADT is repealed. He’s a better judge of that than the gay activists — or any members of Congress — are.”

Repeal activists also point to the fact that other militaries that have already made the transition to allowing gays to serve openly also had opposition before doing so. Despite negative poll numbers similar to what U.S. combat soldiers registered, once the ban was in fact lifted, for example in the United Kingdom, there was not a mass exodus from the military.

Retired Rear Admiral Michael R. Groothousen takes issue with that contention. Groothousen told TheDC that what worked in other, specifically European countries, would not work in America, which is culturally more conservative.

“There are foreign navies that are so open about sexuality that some even share heads [among both sexes] and they look at sexuality a little bit different than Americans do,” Groothousen said, pointing to his experience in command of NATO ships and the fact that Judeo-Christian values hold more sway in America than in Europe. “Top-less and bottomless European beaches, that just does not exist here. They are trying to force something down our throats that does not match American society.”

  • cl696

    Birthing with openly gay men was not allowed when I enlisted. How can I use this change to separate from the military? Why doesn’t the military allow the option to separate since it is stated that there will be no affect on man power?

  • jonavark

    OK.. for the nuts out there I will make it simple.

    We all have enough respect for gays to admit that their attractions to each other are no different than those between straight people. Fine Right?

    So a man’s attraction to a woman is no different than a man’s attraction to a man. OK.. fine.

    Now, when the military started to bring women more into the fold what did they do? Did they just toss them all into the same barracks and say “live with it”? Simple answer right?

    Now, if the attractions between gays is no different than those between non-gays how is it that straight military personnel, men OR women are to be expected to accept them in the same domains they now share with other personnel of the same sex?

    Answer from gays? FORCE THEM TO.

    Answer from the Marines and front line troops? NOT SO FAST.

    I would not have a problem with this is the people who are actually affected by this, and I don’t mean those gays who never had any intention of serving, stood up and said.. Please.. let them in. No problem at all.

    What I do have a problem with is civilian social activists transforming our military.

    I look forward to the numerous lawsuits, hate-crime allegations, privacy problems and the like. Can’t really avoid it any more than you can in civilian life. The military is not the place for such an exercise.

    That’s what Conservatives are saying and that’s what Many of the Generals are saying.

    Meanwhile, gays like to call everyone a bigot, homophobe(lol), and other crazy names just because they can’t understand the simple facts I have outlined above. Or they refuse to.

    So please, tell us how this would work and why you are now considering forcing the will of a tiny minority on a vast majority of military who don’t want to shower and live with women either.

    • scorpioman

      Simple fact of the matter is enough of the top brass (who obviously have served with gays like everyone else) know that basically nothing will change. Except now when a cocky guy says “Hey Private, we’ve never heard anything about your girlfriend back home, are you gay or something?”, that soldier can proudly say “Yes, I have a special guy back home, want to see his pic?”. If you can’t handle that you’re a wimp. There is no place for wimps in the military. So get over your reluctance to embrace change and stop your slanderous misrepresentation of me.

      You can obviously see I’ve gotten a lot of support on this issue. It’s been a long road to where we are but like health care and all other changes being made, the kinks will be worked out. I’ll be happy to remind you later when the world doesn’t end because DADT was repealed. Yep, I can’t wait for that.

      Forget signing up. You’re pathetically insecure if you couldn’t shower with a gay man. Ignorant, if you’ve ever been in a public shower or gym class you’ve already been there. Seriously, did someone laugh at you or something?

      • jonavark

        try to keep your mind on the discussion and stop whining about me. I don’t have to shower with anyone. We’re talking about the military here.

        Is there any part of you that can carry a discussion on without being a drama queen?

        Once again, you went through that entire post without even addressing the question, much less being able to understand it.

      • jonavark

        Are you now admitting that there is a difference between your attraction to the same sex and someone’s attraction to the opposite sex?

        Are you saying men and women should bunk and live together?

      • gringott

        So I am a coward because I don’t want to share shower facilities with a homosexual? Is a female soldier a coward because she doesn’t want to share shower facilities with a man? Your comments are typical of either a person who has never served, or some homosexual REMF that never left Fort Livingroom.

      • truebearing


        As usual, you’re full of crap. The Marine Commandant has been very vocal in his opposition to repealing DADT, for all of the reasons we have provided.

    • truebearing


      The radical gay activists won’t let up until everyone agrees to have gay sex. They are obsessed and rapacious for the power to force the change they want. Their entire identity is inextricably intertwined with their obsession with same sex genitals and the sexual lifestyle they live. They are trying to legitimize and normalize homosexuality by political force. The similarity of their radicalism to the SA, or Brownshirts, isn’t a coincidence, as the leadership of the Brownshirts was basically all gay. The convergence of the gay community with national socialism, ie. Nazism, isn’t unlike the radical gays in America aligning themselves with the far left.

      The left has infiltrated the education system and the media. Now they want more representation in the military. If allowing openly gay people in the military will cause those with conservative values not to join, all the better for the left’s goal of a bloodless coup (bloodless until they gain control, then look out).

      Many gays serving in the military aren’t making a fuss about DADT. It is the radical leftist gays that are driving it and their goal is primarily nihilistic. Like Obama, who has been the subject of rumors he’s gay in Chicago, the leftist gays want to destroy this nation as it has always been and “transform” it into a homosexual utopia. You wouldn’t want to be the minority if they succeeded. They’d show no tolerance whatsoever.

      Once again, the left is hiding its true agenda under the cloak of civil rights. Its worked for them before and the left is nothing if not rigidly repetitive. That’s just how the phobaphobes work.

      • hampton

        “The radical gay activists won’t let up until everyone agrees to have gay sex.”

        How can anyone take anything you say seriously when you spew paranoid, delusional nonsense like this?

        • jonavark

          This is scorp with his cape on.

        • truebearing


          Your comments have a certain dull repetitiveness. I attribute that to a lack of intelligence and your rigid dogmatism. Obviously you are trying to get even with myself, and the cast of thousands, who in the past have slapped you around over your moronic posts. Don’t blame us for your lack.

      • jonavark

        I noticed none of them addressed the simple logical issue I posted above. Neither did they address how you house a group which is sexually attracted to its own members without some chaos.

        As a military commander, this is a problem I would not want to have. What a headache that’s gonna be. Add to that the numerous lawsuits, the exodus of straight military personnel ( I have no idea how many that really will be but it will happen)

        Of course.. if you even suggest it is a problem. You’re a bigot. And that’s gonna change with a DADT repeal right?

        I also noticed that 2Cent posted a long diatribe below telling you that gays are not gay and they’re all predictable reasonable people, but no other group is. He spent a great deal of time telling you that you are paranoid. They all do the exact same thing at the end of a discussion. It’s the nuclear option.

        Of course he didn’t point out how , in civilian society, gays act like he suggests they will in the military. Small gap.. but .. ok..

        This is no different than the marriage issue being the most important thing in the world while our economy is tanking, we have two wars on and a drug war to the south of us.. lowest education scores in the civilized world..

        Now, while the military is deep in a tough job in the middle east.. DADT is , again, the most important thing in the world.. I refuse to believe it is because there are a million gays itching to go fight somewhere. In fact I believe the number of gays who will jump up to join will be very very very low. Which will make any conversion for the military a little easier until they figure out a way to keep it all under control.

        So, given that,, how in the sam hell are we supposed to accept the idea that all of a sudden, the country’s security and success is going to be of prime importance?

        Anyone with half a brain can extrapolate the next set of (social)issues that will arise for the military after this. If they care enough to think about it.

        • GonePostal

          Hey troll, way to ignore everything and just side with your biases. I would expect nothing less.

          • jonavark

            Not an answer.

            But please.. instead of trolling why not tell me what I ignored. Keep it short. I hate reading through your diatribes looking for one nugget.

            If you can’t debate something, don’t be weak and start whining about trolls.

  • TNFrank

    and that was my point about what scorpioman posted. He told a victim of homosexual rape to get a grip. That is simply stomach turning and unacceptable. Sman, I honestly don’t want to get too personal, being that I don’t know you and we are posting online but your militant homosexual agenda is going to turn America off. Like I said, with so many more salient issues for this Congress to pick the Dems are trying to pass this at the last possible second. I thought the President was going to change how DC worked?

    • scorpioman

      Get a grip, as in, don’t accuse homosexuals for raping you when they didn’t and don’t stand in the way of homosexuals who want to serve their country because you were raped by your football team mates.

      You can’t see my point, because you don’t want to see my point. Anyone with a brain can read and see how it went down on page 1. Your lie that I exploited him for his admission only minimalizes his situation further.

      About the gay agenda turning you off. When we are given equal rights under the law we won’t have much reason to fight for rights now will we? We won’t stop fighting till that happens. Stop fighting against our freedom and we’ll stop yelling that we aren’t free.

      • jonavark

        OH geezuz.. go get a tattoo.

      • truebearing


        Don’t tell fairy tales about getting shot when you didn’t.